Topics: West Bank settler violence sanctions; US politics; Labor Government reshuffle;
4:15 PM AEST
25 July 2024
Greg Jennett: Okay, so we do have a few developments to get an opposition response on today. Some foreign, some domestic to do that. Shadow Foreign Minister and opposition Senate leader Simon Birmingham joins us live now from our Sydney studios. Simon, welcome back to the program. But why don’t we start on foreign matters? Australia has for the first time imposed sanctions on Israeli individuals involved in violent attacks on Palestinians in West Bank settlements. Do you support those?
Simon Birmingham: Hi, Greg. It’s good to be with you. Well, we have consistently offered bipartisan support to the government for the use of Magnitsky-style sanctions in targeted, careful ways. These are important legislative abilities for governments to send message, to take action that we put in place as a government. The use of these sanctions is a matter for the government of the day, but we’ve given that bipartisan support and encouraged the government. And today’s use in some ways actually highlights some of the inconsistencies in the way the government has applied these sanctions. The ones they’ve announced today were ones that were already in place in a number of partner nations, including the United States, the EU, against these individuals and entity and have been in place since February. So, it’s for the government to outline why it is that they’re doing this now as distinct from with partners. And equally-.
Greg Jennett: What do you think that is? Just to interrupt there since you’ve planted that doubt? What explanation do you arrive at?
Simon Birmingham: Well, Greg, I’m not sure. And I can’t necessarily see what today’s prompt is for the government, and that is one for them to answer. Just as it is one for them to answer on the fact that three years ago, Penny Wong was calling for sanctions and action to be taken in relation to human rights abuses in the Xinjiang region of China. Two years ago, a damning human rights report was issued highlighting those human rights abuses. Yet no such action has been taken by the Albanese Government, even though international partners have. And so again, why the inconsistency? Why has the government chosen to take this action in relation to Israel, but has never taken any action in relation to Xinjiang in China?
Greg Jennett: Yeah, I don’t know exactly what tests were applied before they arrived at this decision, but what we do know is that the Prime Minister has said today, and Penny Wong has said today the settler actions in the West Bank are illegal under international law and contrary to the objective of a two-state solution. If they were at least two tests that they applied in arriving at the sanctions decision. Do you agree with those two?
Simon Birmingham: Well, Greg, our position in relation to a negotiated two-state solution has not changed at all, and that is that we support a properly negotiated two-state solution. The only party of government in Australia to have changed its position there in recent times is the Albanese Government and the Labor Party. We continue to stand by the fact that you need to get to a negotiated two-state solution. It needs to address issues in terms of borders, in terms of settlements, in terms of rights of return and security guarantees between the different countries. The Labor Party seems to have shifted to some position, as they voted at the United Nations of a premature or early recognition of a Palestinian state. Without those key questions of what the borders are, what the rights of return are, what the security guarantees between the parties are resolved. And we think that is counterproductive and would not support that type of approach that leaves critical questions unresolved and would only potentially inflame and prolong the type of tragic conflict that we’ve all seen go on for far too long.
Greg Jennett: Yeah, I think we’ve covered that in other conversations we’ve had since the UN vote. What expectations should attach, though, from an Australian point of view, to the Israeli government itself when it comes to holding this youth group that has been sanctioned or members of it have been sanctioned, holding them to account. What expectations do you have that the Israeli government should do more against them, too?
Simon Birmingham: Well, Israel is a country with a rule of law, with an independent judiciary, and we have seen that charges have been laid at different times in relation to settler violence. And our expectation is that Israel should apply the full force of the law in relation to settler violence or any other violence against innocent individuals, and that is what we would expect of any of our other Democratic partners and allies. And in Israel has shown that ability to do so in the past. And we would urge them to uphold those laws and those rights of citizens in Israel and, of course, within those settler communities. And we do recognise the difficulty that those settler activities have created in relation to pathway to a negotiated two-state solution. And that is why resolving those borders and putting those issues on the table are so critical. But of course, to even get to that stage, parties need to recognise the right of each other to exist to provide security guarantees and to get to that point of right to exist and security guarantees. We need to see Hamas removed as a terrorist influence and organisation in Palestinian territories, particularly within Gaza.
Greg Jennett: All right. Let’s go to the United States. I’m sure you’ll be aware of Joe Biden’s address to the nation. He’s presented this entire decade as one of a test for democracy. Today, he tightened that down a little further. He really portrayed democracy as being on the line in the US election in November. Do you see it in those terms?
Simon Birmingham: Well, I think there are no doubt global threats to democracy and the rise of autocracies around the world. The US is going through its festival of democracy with an election in November. That is important that that election is fair, and one in which the result is respected by whichever parties win and most particularly by whichever parties lose in that election. We can hold ourselves proud for the way in which we have undertaken peaceful transitions of government in Australia, and we want our democratic partners and friends to have that same standard of respect for their democracies. The US is a democracy that’s been tested and challenged at times over the last couple of centuries, but it’s withstood those tests and challenges. We should have confidence in it to do so again, but we also need it to be as strong as possible to help withstand those global pressures that I referenced at the start of this answer to democracy and to the rules based order around the world. Whether it is Iran’s actions in sponsoring the type of terrorism and conflict that we were just discussing in relation to Gaza, the Red Sea and elsewhere, whether it’s North Korea’s weapons program, Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, China operating in relation to the Philippines and in cooperation with those other countries, all are creating enormous tension and threat in the world. That is why liberal democracies need to be working as closely as possible with one another, and partners around the world in defence of those international rules and order.
Greg Jennett: Let’s see what verdict the American voters themselves return in November. A quick one back on domestic politics here, Simon Birmingham, you will have seen, of course, that Labor is on the brink of a frontbench overhaul on Sunday after the announced departures at the next election by Linda Burney and Brendan O’Connor. Not long ago, the Coalition had its own well, I suppose you’d call it an expansion as well as a reshuffle. Do you expect a realignment of roles to follow once Labor’s frontbench is rearranged?
Simon Birmingham: Well, our frontbench will be settled by our leadership and that is in fact in stark contrast to what we can see from the way Anthony Albanese has had to announce this today, that he is beholden to the factions who will choose who he gets in his cabinet and on his frontbench rather than in charge of it himself. And it shows what a weak position he is in that he doesn’t get to make those decisions. He’s beholden to factional leaders about who he gets-
Greg Jennett: It’s time-honoured practice, though, isn’t it? To be fair, in the ALP way of things in the caucus?
Simon Birmingham: Past leaders have been able to show the strength and the ability to work this out in advance and to have control of the process, whereas it seems as if Anthony Albanese is throwing the net open for nominations and will be beholden to the numbers of the different factions, carving up the positions as they choose to. Now that’s a matter of their process. It shows a failure in their process and questions around his strength of leadership in that. I acknowledge that in the two outgoing cabinet ministers, Linda Burney, Brendan O’Connor, have been people who have put their values front and centre, worked hard and they are good people who I wish well in the future. But for Anthony Albanese, the test really here is does he have the courage to get rid of Andrew Giles as immigration minister? Will he make the changes that are necessary? And even in those portfolio areas with, for example, the skills minister going, how is he going to reverse the decline in apprenticeship numbers that we’re seeing in Australia, with commencements down some 38% under this Government?
Greg Jennett: All right. Well, we’ll reserve judgement on that. You’ve probably given us a bit of a steer towards where the Coalition might be on Sunday or Monday. We’ll run a ruler over it next week, I guess. Simon Birmingham, thanking you once again for coming on.
Simon Birmingham: Thanks, Greg. My pleasure.
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