Topics: Ukraine; refugee policy
07:30AM AEST
2 September 2024
Steve Cannane: Ukraine’s Defence Minister, Rustem Umerov, has been in Washington DC, lobbying the Biden administration to drop restrictions that prevent the country from using long range weapons to strike deeper into Russian territory. And that argument dominated proceedings at the Globesec talks in Prague over the weekend as well. At those talks European Commission President, Ursula von der Leyen, took aim at those who oppose sending military supplies to Kyiv, saying they are not making the case for peace, but for appeasement and subjugation. Senator Simon Birmingham is Australia’s Shadow Minister for Foreign Affairs and he was at those talks in Prague on the weekend, after spending part of last week in Ukraine. I spoke to him earlier. Senator Birmingham, thanks for joining Radio National breakfast.
Simon Birmingham: It’s great to be with you, Steve. Thank you.
Steve Cannane: While you were in Kyiv, you met with Deputy Ministers for defence, foreign affairs and strategic industries as well as with members of parliamentary committees. From those discussions, what did you learn about what kind of ongoing support Ukraine wants and needs from Australia?
Simon Birmingham: Ukraine is, firstly, very grateful for the support they have received from Australia and they recognise that although Australia may be a long way away, we understand the strategic importance of Ukraine winning, fending off this type of assault not just on them but on the types of rules that keep us all safe. And whether it’s Bushmasters or other assistance, they’re grateful. They’re also pleased that recently we have signed on to work in the drone coalition, providing really targeted support in that space. But they are eager to see us do more to pursue a similar coalition of support around de-mining. The type of mining that Russia has undertaken is of grave concern to much of Ukraine in terms of their farmlands and communities as in Australia we have a strong history of the type of work we did with Cambodia and some great companies who have real skills in that area. So, I hope that is an example of something that can be looked at. But they’re also eager for us to look at the retiring Abrams tanks and how they might be able to be deployed. And they hold out some hope that things, that have been mistakes of the past, such as the failure to provide the retiring army helicopters to Ukraine, that there may still be some scope for support in that space too.
Steve Cannane: You mentioned the Abrams tanks, Australia’s M1A1 Abrams tanks have just officially been retired and on the weekend, retired Australian Army Major General Mick Ryan suggested they should be shipped off to Ukraine. Do you agree with that?
Simon Birmingham: Well absolutely in terms of, unless there is a good reason not to, and it’s hard to think of one, then we should be willing to provide the type of equipment that our army and our defence forces are retiring. And there’s definitely interest in receiving that equipment. As I said before, it was a missed opportunity and a failure by the Government to not send the retiring Taipan helicopters to Ukraine and there’s never really been a clear-cut answer as to why not. We had the saga over the Hawkei vehicles and requests there that ran on all too long. And now with these tanks there is another opportunity and it’s one that should be seized by the Albanese Government to provide equipment that we may no longer want, but a friend and country at war could need and use purposefully.
Steve Cannane: If Peter Dutton was to win the next election, is there a plan to increase aid and support to Ukraine?
Simon Birmingham: I would certainly hope and trust that we will go to the next election, whenever that may be, if Ukraine is still at war, with a clear plan for our support, not just for announcements timed with key meetings or anniversaries, but a strategic commitment the likes of which many of the other countries have done that guarantees ongoing support for as long as this conflict may take for Ukraine to be able to prevail so that we’re sending the strongest possible signal, not just to Ukraine, but critically, to Vladimir Putin and to Russia that Ukraine has the backing of its allies and with that backing it puts the pressure on when it comes to peace negotiations for a true, just, enduring and fulsome settlement to be reached that is in Ukraine’s favour.
Steve Cannane: So just to be clear, you’re hoping to go to the next election with a policy that would, like with other nations, Western nations around the world, have a strategic commitment to help Ukraine?
Simon Birmingham: That I think is key – to be clear cut, that we are in it for the long haul, that it is not a piecemeal announcement by announcement strategy, but that we are with them because ultimately if Ukraine succeeds and defeats Russia then we will all be a little bit safer because of the message that sends to other autocrats and individuals or countries that seek to undermine the rules-based order. But if Ukraine is in a position where ultimately it has to give up its territory or land and have its sovereignty compromised, we will all equally be a little bit weaker because it will have shown a lack of resolve on the part of democratic partners of Ukraine.
Steve Cannane: On Radio National breakfast we’re talking to Senator Simon Birmingham, Opposition Foreign Affairs Spokesperson has just left Ukraine and also Central and Eastern Europe, where he’s been visiting there. Senator, while in Ukraine you announced that the Coalition would, if elected, reopen Australia’s Embassy in Kyiv. That is something that dozens of countries have already done. Why is that important?
Simon Birmingham: It’s important because it is about Australia receiving the best possible intelligence and advice. In asking officials and coming to understand how it is that Ukraine engages with other countries, it’s very clear that there are sensitive and secure briefings provided in person, often at short notice, given the nature of them and the war-type environment as well, and by having our ambassador based in Warsaw it’s clearly impossible for us to participate in all of those types of things that can secure and provide the best, most timely information and advice and intelligence back into Australia. Now, as you said and acknowledged, dozens, in fact, around 70 countries, from Ireland to Indonesia and many of our traditional partners have reopened, often two years ago now their missions in Kyiv and indeed Canada, who we share a building with, have reopened and are in that building with the right security environment in place to support their operations and if they and so many others can do so, then it shouldn’t be beyond the Australian Government to do so too.
Steve Cannane: Ukraine’s Defence Minister, Rustem Umerov, has been in Washington DC in recent days urging the Biden administration to lift restrictions on using long-range weapons. And at Globesec, which you attended those conversations as well, the discussions emphasise that allies should not restrict Ukraine’s use of supplied weapons. Did you get any sense from the discussions that you’ve been exposed to that those restrictions could soon be lifted?
Simon Birmingham: I’ve certainly heard many strong and compelling arguments for why those restrictions should be lifted. That Ukraine, in being provided with missiles and capability that could remove some of the sites from which Russia launches its own attacks onto Ukraine, and therefore make Ukraine safer and enable their resources to be better deployed in this war, the arguments are very clear. There’s growing support across much of Europe and you referenced those discussions at Globesec in Prague and the conversations and comments made from the head of the EU, Ursula von der Leyen down, in terms of strong support and I hope that the key crunch countries in this discussion, particularly the US and Germany do heed those messages and give Ukraine the capacity to be able to better defend itself and therefore be better able to bring this conflict to a just and enduring end.
Steve Cannane: In an opinion piece you wrote after your trip to Ukraine, you referenced the fact that the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees had estimated that around 117 million people had been forcibly displaced from their homes due to conflict, violence and persecution. What is Coalition policy at the moment as far as how many refugees Australia should be taking per year?
Simon Birmingham: Well Steve, we’ll go to the next election in terms of the precise numbers and the approach that we might take. In that piece I acknowledged very clearly that, of course, no country, not Australia nor anybody else, is able to solve the refugee and displacement problem in terms of the scale of it. And that piece was reflecting on comments that people who have lost their homes and been driven from their communities made to me about the appreciation that countries like Australia should have for the peace and environment that we are in. We should also be proud of our role, historic and long enduring, at being always one of the top two or three countries in the world on a per capita basis in terms of providing permanent resettlement and I don’t expect that to change into the future.
Steve Cannane: Well Labor raised it to 20,000 a year, up from around 13,000 under the Morrison Government. Do you do you back that? Do you think that’s an appropriate level?
Simon Birmingham: Steve, as I said, I’m not going to foreshadow all of the details of our policy. Australia has been, whether it is under the current Government, under the Morrison Government, under previous Governments, a long-standing top two or three contributor on a per capita basis to permanent resettlement and I fully expect that we will continue to do so.
Steve Cannane: Senator Birmingham, we’ll have to leave it there but thanks for your time this morning.
Simon Birmingham: Thank you, Steve. My pleasure.
[ENDS]