Topics: Australia-China relationship; Aussies in Lebanon who ignored warnings should pay for ticket home; Middle East conflict;
07:25AM AEST
11 October 2024
Patricia Karvelas: China’s four-year campaign against Australian exports appears to be, well, over after Beijing confirmed it would lift restrictions on Australian lobsters. Prime Minister Anthony Albanese confirmed the trade would resume within months after a meeting with the Chinese Premier, Li Qiang, yesterday. It’s the latest industry to get a reprieve as relations have slowly improved. Simon Birmingham is the Shadow Foreign Affairs Minister and was the trade minister when the sanctions were imposed. He joins us now. Senator, welcome.
Simon Birmingham: Good morning, Patricia. Good to be with you.
Patricia Karvelas: China’s trade bans were worth about $20 billion at one point, with the last major restrictions removed, can we say the relationship has been stabilised?
Simon Birmingham: Patricia, there remain difficulties in the relationship. The reality is there probably always will be. We’re different countries, different systems of government and approach some of the issues in our region and the world, quite differently. However, the stabilisation that has been achieved is welcome. The lifting of these trade restrictions that should never have been imposed by China in the first place is welcome and is important for a number of those industry sectors. It’s key that that we continue to work in a way that maintains those economic ties where possible, but also critical that Australia is up front in dealing with the security challenges and risks in our region, including where China presents those security challenges and risks.
Patricia Karvelas: Yeah, Beijing has removed the restrictions without Australia making any concessions on contentious issues like Taiwan or the South China Sea. Do you give the Albanese Government credit for achieving this?
Simon Birmingham: Well, we welcome it, and they are positive steps and there’s no doubt about that-
Patricia Karvelas: But I mean their actual achievement themselves in getting there.
Simon Birmingham: Well, let’s recall here, these sanctions should never have been in place in the first instance. That China was acting in breach of its undertakings to Australia under the various free trade agreements that were entered into under Coalition governments with China, and that they chose to wilfully act in breach of those agreements. And that in relation to lobsters, in fact, these were a particularly appalling act by China because they were an abuse of biosecurity provisions, allegedly finding contaminants or issues in relation to Australian lobster that could never be identified in Australia as being a valid cause for the trade to be suspended. So, it is a good thing that China has reversed its policy on these issues, that it is letting that trade resume. But of course, China’s actions have changed the risk profile, which is why diversification remains critically important. We continue to have other concerns, which we think at times the Albanese Government has not expressed strongly enough-
Patricia Karvelas: Like what?
Simon Birmingham: -and addressed up front, in terms of the security instances in our region.
Patricia Karvelas: What could they have done differently?
Simon Birmingham: Well, for example, I think recently when we spoke, we canvassed this. That the Prime Minister should, for example, in relation to the HMAS Toowoomba incident, have directly addressed that issue at the first opportunity with President Xi when he had it, which he chose not to. And we really should be seizing those opportunities to make clear to the highest levels of Beijing’s leadership, where we have concerns about Chinese actions that can destabilise our region, that could cause miscalculation or accident, and risk a type of conflict that none of us wish to see and that what we need to see from China, as I said at the Australia-China Business Council recently, is what sort of expectations we should have of China now as a global power. They are a global power, and they will be, for as far as the eye can see. And conduct in terms of military exercises that are risky, confrontational and present, a chance of conflict emerging is not the way that a responsible global power should engage, and we should be working with other partners in the region. Our ASEAN partners in particular, to ensure that China hears clearly the message about the need to respect territorial boundaries, to respect rulings on the UN convention on the Law of the Sea, and indeed to not engage in that type of military conduct.
Patricia Karvelas: So, we are obviously incredibly, really close to an election. Is it going to continue the same way if you’re elected? Is the approach to China going to mirror what we’ve seen from the Albanese Government?
Simon Birmingham: What I outlined at that recent Australia-China Business Council speech and have done elsewhere, is that an approach that I would take as foreign minister, that a Dutton government would take is one of being principled and predictable in our engagement with China. We should stand up for Australia’s values, interests and address upfront those issues of concern.
Patricia Karvelas: Has the Albanese Government been principled and predictable?
Simon Birmingham: Well, I think the concern there and indeed I highlighted one of those security concerns, is that I think China wonders whether Australia will stand as strongly in relation to identifying and speaking about those security concerns and risks in the region, as I believe, and we believe that Australia should.
Patricia Karvelas: So, you would muscle up to China if you were elected?
Simon Birmingham: Not a case of muscling up. I’m not going to use that type of language.
Patricia Karvelas: Okay. Use yours.
Simon Birmingham: But has been, absolutely, it is a case of being absolutely consistent, clear and upfront about addressing the problems when we see them and trying to make sure that we work with our partners right across the region to emphasise to China that we all want to see a peaceful and stable region where others are respected. Be that the Philippines respected in terms of their territorial and sovereignty and integrity or be that in terms of the will of the Taiwanese people being respected and not risking any unilateral change to the status quo there, and that we need to build those partnerships to present a united fronts to China in that regard.
Patricia Karvelas: Just on another matter, you’ve written that Australians fleeing Lebanon should be paying their own way instead of being rewarded with a free ride. What do you mean?
Simon Birmingham: What I mean, Patricia, is that we need to make sure that Australians understand when the Australian Government, whether it’s a Labor one or a Coalition one, issues travel warnings and says, get out of somewhere that they should heed those warnings, not wait for a possible free ticket home. And unfortunately, far too many people, around 15,000 Australians, in fact, in Lebanon, have for months and months and months ignored the advice coming from the Albanese government to leave, to not travel to Lebanon and to get out if you are there while you still can. Whilst we’ve seen much of the bipartisanship in the Middle East lost due to the changing policy positions of the Labor Government. On this we were at one. Penny Wong, Anthony Albanese, Peter Dutton, myself, all continuously reinforcing and highlighting those travel advisories not to be in Lebanon. And so, whilst the government is right to help people now to get out and to provide opportunities where they can, it’s not unreasonable that people should be paying the price of a commercial ticket, as long as they have the means to do so.
Patricia Karvelas: So, people should. Everyone who’s been evacuated should be charged a commercial ticket for, you know, it should be said, a standard price. What are you suggesting?
Simon Birmingham: Yes, this is essentially a commercial type airfare price back home. And this should be applied consistently in these types of situations. I’m not picking on this particular one, although it stands out because of the long duration of clear advice coming from the Australian Government to get out of Lebanon. We now have dozens of Australian diplomats, more than we would usually have in Beirut, having to help and work on the evacuation effort because people chose to stay. So, we have people in harm’s way because of that choice. They are doing a good, hard-working job there, and I pay credit to those consular staff. But we should also be making sure the incentives for people to heed those travel advisories and take action are good, strong incentives, and that should be not one of waiting around until you can get a free ride back home.
Patricia Karvelas: Yeah, I mean, free ride has a sort of pejorative sound, right? Like that. They’re just trying to be free riders. I’ve heard some really heartbreaking stories. I heard a woman talk about how her mother is dying in a hospital, and she, you know, completely tortured about the experience of leaving her mother there, never going to see her again. And that’s been the tussle. Do you accept that people haven’t just been trying to have a free ride, but have these really complex family situations?
Simon Birmingham: As I wrote in that piece, there are many people with deep family ties to Lebanon with other ties, including employment and livelihoods they’ve largely built there, and I respect that. And indeed, thousands of Australians in Lebanon will still choose to stay and not take up any of the options to leave. But that doesn’t change the fact that for many others, they did ignore warning after warning. And it was only when the military action reaction began that suddenly they picked the phone up to the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade consular hotline and said, can you help me get out now? And unfortunately, if we reinforce that type of behaviour, we’re only asking to have even greater problems in the future. They need to obviously be scope for the department to apply compassionate consideration for those who genuinely.
Patricia Karvelas: So, there should be exceptions for people in difficult situations?
Simon Birmingham: For those who genuinely cannot afford to have paid for an air ticket back home, whose situations may be so dire in that regard. Of course, there should be compassion shown. But as a general standing policy, we should be expecting people to pay their way in these circumstances, because that is one of the ways that we can incentivise people to, in future, have greater credence to those travel advisory warnings.
Patricia Karvelas: Simon Birmingham, just finally there is obviously an escalated and ongoing war going on in the Middle East. Are there any limits to your support for Israel’s military response?
Simon Birmingham: Patricia, Israel’s choices it makes in terms of its military response are their choices.
Patricia Karvelas: But are there any limits, any red lines for the Coalition?
Simon Birmingham: Well, Patricia, we continue to support strongly Israel’s right to self-defence. We have said clearly all along that Israel should act with regard to international law. We’ve stood in a consistent position with the United States administration of President Biden in terms of the stances that we have taken. I would imagine that we would continue to stand in that type of consistent approach with the Biden administration in practical, encouraging practical support for Israel and encouraging principled support for Israel to remove the terrorist threats on its doorstep, and to have the right to respond to aggression from Hamas, Hezbollah or Iran. Now, how Israel does so should be done considerate of those international laws.
Patricia Karvelas: But it’s been accused of breaking international laws. Do you condemn that?
Simon Birmingham: It has been accused and of course, there are processes underway that will continue to assess those accusations. I’m not going to-
Patricia Karvelas: So that is a red line?
Simon Birmingham: I’m not going to prejudge those processes, Patricia. And we will allow that to run its course.
Patricia Karvelas: But would that be a red line for your support?
Simon Birmingham: Patricia. We would have to see what judgements and findings are made through different provisions. We are clear and consistent in our support for Israel, also always emphasising the need to target their actions, the need to have regard for international law as we would expect and as we have said from the passage of a parliamentary resolution last year.
Patricia Karvelas: Simon Birmingham, thanks for your time.
Simon Birmingham: Thank you. My pleasure.
[ENDS]