KIERAN GILBERT: Joining me now, I’ve got Liberal frontbencher Senator Simon Birmingham and Labor MP Andrew Leigh. Gentlemen, good morning.
ANDREW LEIGH: Morning, Kieran.
SIMON BIRMINGHAM: Morning, Kieran.
KIERAN GILBERT: First of all to you, Andrew, on the Thomson matter, the AEC Commissioner, the Australian Electoral Commissioner, last night said his report last week should have no impact on the veracity of the Fair Work Australia report. This goes counter to what Craig Thomson had said earlier in the week when he said the AEC destroyed the credibility of Fair Work Australia so this issue… the Government and the whole Thomson matter… the Coalition seems to be very much… have a case here on a number of fronts, including, now, when it comes to this AEC report.
ANDREW LEIGH: Kieran, I’m going to say something shocking and crazy to you I don’t actually think Parliamentarians should determine people’s guilt or innocence. It used to be that that was an issue that was agreed across the Parliament but in recent days it seems to be that we have Mr Abbott coming out and suggesting that Parliamentarians should play judge and jury. That’s a dangerous path to go down.
SIMON BIRMINGHAM: But Parliamentarians do determine, through the Privileges process, whether other Parliamentarians have misled the Parliament and, in this instance, Craig Thomson stood in the House, claimed that the AEC had, of course, destroyed the credibility of the Fair Work Australia report. Now, everyone from the Prime Minister down said the Fair Work Australia report was a fair process. The AEC themselves said last night there should be absolutely no impact on the veracity of the Fair Work Australia report from the AEC’s findings, so Craig Thomson definitely crossed a line there and, of course…
ANDREW LEIGH: So, Simon… so, in terms of referring it to Privileges, we have… the Speaker has ruled there isn’t a prima facie case of misleading Parliament but Labor hasn’t wanted to stand in the way of the referral to Privileges, so we’ve allowed the matter to go to Privileges but what I’m not going to do on the…
KIERAN GILBERT: … beyond that… okay, I’ll come back to you in a moment, Andrew, but that was the point I made to Senator Joyce, that it seems that the Government acquiesced in that sense it allowed this to go to Privileges, supported the Opposition motion on that. Isn’t it now just about the Coalition trying to keep this front and centre to dominate the political debate?
SIMON BIRMINGHAM: Well, Kieran, look, it is at the Privileges Committee. We hope the Privileges Committee will give it a fair hearing, as it should. We hope the Privileges Committee will take the type of evidence that it should, from those who have evidence to give that may, of course, in some instances, contradict what Mr Thomson has had to say that’s a matter for the Privileges Committee but these other matters… they come up in the course of events and, of course, questioning the Electoral Commission about the statements Mr Thomson himself had made about the Electoral Commission is fair game for the Opposition to do. We absolutely should do that and the Electoral Commission hit them for six.
KIERAN GILBERT: Andrew… well, that’s the role of the Senate Committee, of course, but I do understand, Andrew Leigh, your point about not being judge and jury but I think it would have more validity if the Prime Minister hadn’t already acted as judge, to the degree that Mr Thomson’s been shuffled out of the Labor Party to the crossbench, but still taking his vote. It seems to be quite a significant contradiction in your argument.
ANDREW LEIGH: I entirely disagree on that, Kieran, but it’s an important question which… I want a chance to answer it. Parties determine who sits in their party rooms and the Prime Minister has decided that, until these matters are cleared up, that Craig Thomson will sit in the frontbench [crossbench] and won’t be a member of the Labor Party but voters should determine who sits in the Parliament, not politicians, and that is why our view is that Mr Thomson’s vote should be counted, that the electors of Dobell have a right to be represented. Mr Abbott has this sort of twisted world view that as soon as you’ve been… an allegation’s been made against you, a formal complaint, that suddenly you oughtn’t be counted. By that logic, Senator Heffernan, who has had a formal complaint made against him, oughtn’t be counted and Mr Abbott should stand him down from his committee chairmanship. I mean, I think that’s a very twisted world view. It takes us down a very dangerous path.
SIMON BIRMINGHAM: But you…
KIERAN GILBERT: But you accept his vote that’s the point. You don’t have to… he can stay in the Parliament but the Labor Party’s already made the call to have him removed from the party room but you don’t have to… you can pair his vote off and say ‘look, we’re not going to accept that’.
ANDREW LEIGH: Well, I believe the electors of Dobell have a right to have their voice heard in the Federal Parliament. I also think that Senator Heffernan’s vote should continue to count…
KIERAN GILBERT: Okay, Senator Birmingham
ANDREW LEIGH: … even though there’s a formal complaint against him.
KIERAN GILBERT: Let’s hear from Senator Birmingham.
SIMON BIRMINGHAM: Mr Thomson has been thrown out of the Labor Party. They have prejudged him on this regard, Kieran, and yet somehow they continue to protest his right to innocence on another level. If he’s guilty in the eyes of the Labor Party, if he doesn’t deserve to sit in the Labor Party, why is it that the Labor Party will keep taking his vote from the crossbenches? Now, Mr Thomson has been subject to a very extensive three- to four-year Fair Work Australia investigation by a statutory authority who the Prime Minister, for three to four years, said was a statutory authority that was the right place to hear these allegations, the right place to undertake the investigation. It has delivered an 1100-page report and it is a damning report and the real question is what action will the Prime Minister take in light of that damning report?
KIERAN GILBERT: Why not make a statement to Parliament, as the Opposition is calling on the Prime Minister to do?
ANDREW LEIGH: So, this matter…
KIERAN GILBERT: Is there a problem with that? Why not do that?
ANDREW LEIGH: Well, I’m not sure what statement Mr Abbott wants. I think what he wants is to advance his own political…
SIMON BIRMINGHAM: The Prime Minister should explain the inconsistencies in her own position.
ANDREW LEIGH: I think what Mr Abbott wants is for this matter to continue to roil and so he is able to talk about mud and smear rather than about the strength of the Australian economy, the Australian budget that’s delivered for families a $400 schoolkid bonus for primary schoolkids, $800 for secondary schoolkids, the carbon price, the mining tax. Mr Abbott isn’t interested in any of that. He wants to talk about mud and smear.
SIMON BIRMINGHAM: Let me give you two simple things…
KIERAN GILBERT: I think he wants to talk about the carbon price.
SIMON BIRMINGHAM: Let me give you two simple things, Andrew…
ANDREW LEIGH: Well, he’s certainly not happy to talk about the assistance that is being provided with the carbon price the fact, for example, for the Kurri Kurri smelter, that the assistance means the impact on a tonne of aluminium…
SIMON BIRMINGHAM: And it still hasn’t saved their jobs, so…
ANDREW LEIGH: … is a dollar a tonne…
SIMON BIRMINGHAM: And it still hasn’t saved their jobs, but…
ANDREW LEIGH: … and the cost of the carbon price is equivalent to a one cent increase in the Australian dollar. We’re in a world in which the Australian dollar just fell eight cents. The carbon price is one cent so we’ve got to keep these things in perspective.
SIMON BIRMINGHAM: Andrew, and I’m sure we’ll come to the carbon price…
KIERAN GILBERT: Why don’t we come to that now because that’s a valid… Andrew Leigh’s made the point… an economist, obviously watches the numbers quite closely… he says that the impact of the carbon price on the dollar is one cent, we’ve already seen an $8 [8 cent] fluctuation on that…
SIMON BIRMINGHAM: And we see from the owners, the operators of the Kurri Kurri aluminium smelter there… 400 jobs gone… and they are the first business in Australia to say with absolute clarity the carbon price, the carbon tax, was a factor in their decision there. Others have hinted at it. Others have suggested it will be a consideration in the future. These people have said 400 jobs are going and the carbon tax was a direct factor absolutely crystal clear in that regard. Now, sure, there are other business considerations for them but, when they take the long term view of this, they see a carbon tax in place where the compensation they get is not secure, where the tax is going to go up, and so they know that over time their position will continually be eroded under this carbon tax.
KIERAN GILBERT: It was mentioned in their statement, the company statement… the carbon tax…
ANDREW LEIGH: Minister Combet spoke to the company yesterday and they said that this issue was around cash flow. One issue is that the O’Farrell Government hasn’t agreed to long term electricity contracts. Another is the 40 per cent fall in world aluminium prices from about $3000 to $2000 $3000 to $2000 the world price falls, and the carbon price will be $1 on a tonne of aluminium…
SIMON BIRMINGHAM: They cited the carbon tax as a real reason…
ANDREW LEIGH: … so let’s keep this in perspective a tonne of aluminium has fallen in price by $1000 and the impact of the carbon price will be $1.
SIMON BIRMINGHAM: And in making a long term decision about the future of a plant…
ANDREW LEIGH: This is a ludicrous argument.
SIMON BIRMINGHAM: … and, Andrew, in making a long term decision about the future of a plant like this, do you think the fact that their compensation isn’t secure and that the tax will go up…
ANDREW LEIGH: It’s absolutely secure, Simon.
SIMON BIRMINGHAM: No it’s not.
ANDREW LEIGH: The compensation… the free…
SIMON BIRMINGHAM: No, it’s not. It’s under review, under the legislation, in a few years’ time.
ANDREW LEIGH: The free permits continue and that’s the thing about this debate…
SIMON BIRMINGHAM: It’s all up for review in a few years’ time. Go back and look at the Clean Energy Act.
ANDREW LEIGH: But the critical thing about this debate is we have to be talking about the assistance that’s being provided as well as putting the price on.
SIMON BIRMINGHAM: The assistance isn’t secure for these companies in the long term, so they’re paying a big price to start with and they are, of course, facing a situation where they know that price will only go up and the compensation they get is at risk of going down.
KIERAN GILBERT: Doesn’t that create uncertainty about their planning?
ANDREW LEIGH: This certainly isn’t what they said to Minister Combet when he spoke to them yesterday. They spoke about the cash flow problems and the huge international drop in the price of aluminium.
KIERAN GILBERT: But if you look at it…
SIMON BIRMINGHAM: So they never mentioned the carbon price in their conversation with Mr Combet?
ANDREW LEIGH: As I understand it, that’s the case.
SIMON BIRMINGHAM: Because they certainly mentioned it in their public statement.
ANDREW LEIGH: They talked about the cash flow issues.
KIERAN GILBERT: The price… $1000 per tonne… it’s down the aluminium price as Andrew cited there… the impact of a carbon price is a $1. Do you concede that that’s a fair comparison?
SIMON BIRMINGHAM: Oh, look, there are all sorts of pressures business will concede and consider in these situations but that’s why I’m talking about, very much, the long term impacts here, because the dollar will fluctuate greatly from year to year. We all know that and we’ve seen that in the last couple of years. This is a case that, for the long term, they have to consider the fact they’re going to pay a tax that keeps going up and up and up.
KIERAN GILBERT: Okay, gentlemen. I’m sorry we’re out of time. It’s good to see you both. Andrew Leigh, Senator Simon Birmingham, thanks for that.
[ends]