| Interview on ABC Adelaide, Breakfast with Ali Clarke and David Bevan
Subjects: Climate change; Sharrouf children; Tony Abbott
EO&E…………………………………………………………
ALI CLARKE:
It’s good morning to Minister for Trade, Liberal Simon Birmingham, hello.
SIMON BIRMINGHAM:
Hello, good to be with you.
ALI CLARKE:
Good morning, we also are joined by Labor Senator for South Australia and Shadow Minister for Foreign Affairs Penny Wong, good morning.
PENNY WONG:
G’day, good to be with you.
ALI CLARKE:
And leader of the Australian conservatives. He was texting everybody over the weekend, but he has joined us by phone. Cory Bernardi, good morning.
CORY BERNARDI:
Good morning to you Ali.
DAVID BEVAN:
Penny Wong, can you…
PENNY WONG:
I’ve just got to say David, I’m still chuckling at the pensioners riposte to you. There’s a few us that might have let out a bit of a silent cheer.
DAVID BEVAN:
That’s not your nom de plume is it? Port Adelaide…
PENNY WONG:
No, no, no I don’t [distinct] it I promise.
DAVID BEVAN:
No, ok, alright. Penny Wong, can you answer the question that your leader could not answer. When can voters expect to learn more about Labor’s emission reductions target? How are you going to get there? And the cost to the economy?
PENNY WONG:
Well on the first two we’ve announced those policies and we’ve announced them for some years now. We have been clear that we would have a higher reduction target than the government. We were to have a higher target for the amount of renewable energy that we want in the system. 45 per cent emission reduction by 2030 and 50 per cent renewable energy component by 2030 as well. On the broader issue of GDP which is you know what will the cost of the economy be. I would make the point and I think I’ve made this point to you over many years as these climate wars have raged David, that the cost of inaction is high. And we know that the cost of uncertainty in the energy sector is stymieing investment, driving up costs and increasing lack of reliability. We also know, that the costs of disaster recovery as a consequence of climate change, the economic costs of the sorts of consequences to the River Murray and the Great Barrier Reef are very high, On GDP, can I make this point? Tony Abbott who is not well known as somebody who’s pro-action on climate change, commissioned economic modelling by Warwick McKibbin and what it showed was this,that our 45 per cent pollution reduction target with international offsets has the same economic impact as the Liberals policy which doesn’t allow for international offsets. So, I think it is time given how important this issue is that we all moved beyond the sort of scare campaign that no doubt Cory and Simon will re-engage in just as the Coalition and the right have over the last 10 years and look where we are.
DAVID BEVAN:
Are you saying, that if Australia meets its emissions targets, we will be able to avoid the sort of climate change disasters you are predicting?
PENNY WONG:
Now that’s the sort of line that Cory runs, and Barnaby Joyce ran, David. And I’m unsurprised frankly that you put it to me. And what I would say is this, of course Australia can’t fix everything, but nothing will happen in this world, if we, if every country said that. And if you look at the most recent IPCC report, you know you will see what, where we are on track and what I find interesting David…
DAVID BEVAN:
No, I can understand, I can understand that the moral argument.
PENNY WONG:
It’s not a moral argument.
DAVID BEVAN:
Penny Wong if, Penny Wong, if I could just put to you a question please.
PENNY WONG:
Can I finish my answer please?
DAVID BEVAN:
Well, if I. I think you’re going off on a tangent here Penny Wong and If I could…
PENNY WONG:
I would like to finish my answer. And one of the things I would like to say to you this. It has been really instructive for me to go around to schools and talk to young people about their views about this, because they are…
DAVID BEVAN:
That’s great, I don’t want to talk about the school kids. I want to put to you Penny Wong that, I can understand why there is a moral argument, saying it, we need to do our bit.
PENNY WONG:
It’s not a moral argument.
DAVID BEVAN:
But, do you concede that doing all of these measures will not actually affect climate change, because we amount for such a small part of the economy.
PENNY WONG:
Well that’s an argument that Tony Abbott used, along with the argument that Whyalla was going to be wiped out, and there would be a hundred dollar [inaudible]. The argument is that that you are using, and you’re putting to me and I think frankly it’s an argument out of touch where most Australians are, and certainly with the next generation of Australians are. Is that let’s not do anything because it’s other people’s responsibility.
DAVID BEVAN:
I’m not saying we shouldn’t do anything. I’m just saying do you concede that if we get all these measures in place it will not actually affect the climate.
PENNY WONG:
I have, I have been on your program for a decade and I’ve answered consistently this is a global problem. Nobody pretends that we can wave a magic wand. But what we do know is this, if we don’t act, we know that the climate will keep worsening and we understand what will happen. We are not doing our fair share. We will not meet our Paris targets and that the data consistently shows that. And I would make the other point, we also know the costs of failing to provide investment certainty for the energy sector. We know that we’ve had 13 different policies from the Coalition when it comes to energy, 13 different ones. And what we are seeing is increases in energy costs which are primarily deriving from the investment uncertainty.
DAVID BEVAN:
Simon Birmingham, Minister for Trade, liberal senator. Are you satisfied that you now know enough about Labor’s emissions reduction target, how they’re going to achieve it and the cost to the economy?
SIMON BIRMINGHAM:
No David, now, what we have to do in relation to emissions is to ensure Australia meets a responsible and proportionate target and that’s what our target is at 26 to 28 per cent reduction in terms of what our Paris commitment is. Australia has met and exceeded Kyoto 1 targets. We will meet and exceed Kyoto 2 targets. We’ve outlined in a detailed way with a $3 billion plus Climate Solutions Fund how we will meet as a government in a country, the targets we have set. But Labor have proposed dramatically higher emissions reduction targets. One day government has said, are already in terms of GDP or per capita terms, world leading targets. Labor want to nearly double them. And now Penny has claimed that the only difference will be because billions of dollars under Labor’s proposal would be purchased in international abatement certificates, buying abatement offshore rather than any change in Australia. If that’s the case that is entirely what Labor’s relying on, then they need to detail, as we have done, how they will precisely meet the larger target, how much will come from those international certificates, how many billions of dollars will have to go offshore in purchasing those certificates? And that’s not clear at all. Bill Shorten when asked yesterday to detail what the economic cost of his emissions reduction plan was, spent two minutes answering the question without mentioning emissions reductions at all. In answering the question, it’s little wonder the journalists got frustrated because he just completely pivoted and never came to the topic whatsoever.
DAVID BEVAN:
Cory Bernardi…
PENNY WONG:
Well I suppose, sorry. Can I just say this? It’s alright you wanted to go to Cory, that’s fine.
DAVID BEVAN:
Well I think we gave you plenty of opportunity.
PENNY WONG:
No that’s fair enough.
DAVID BEVAN:
You’re happy if we talk to someone else? Cory Bernardi, leader of the Australian Conservatives.
CORY BERNARDI:
Thank you David, I think you should rename this segment ‘Polly Waffle’, because I heard a thousand words from Penny Wong and I am none the wiser to the damage that the Labor Party’s administration and emissions reduction targets are going to do to the Australian economy. And the only consistency in this space has been inconsistency, because for 10 years we’ve had this as a great moral challenge of our time from the Labor Party. And now it’s not a moral challenge. We’re going to have cash for [indistinct]. We’re going to have a whole range of other things go on. Now the problem we’ve got in this country, is that everyone is pursuing an ideology that is actually damaging our economy. It’s putting a handbrake on our employment and our jobs growth. And all of the things that Penny Wong says we’ve warned about, such as the damage to Whyalla etc, were reason in part that they abandoned their plans from 10 years ago.
DAVID BEVAN:
Cory Bernardi, do you at least concede that, what Penny Wong, Bill Shorten and Mark Butler are providing is consistency. If they are elected they will provide a consistent plan. They won’t be chopping and changing as the Coalition has done. They will give certainty and that is what business has been asking for.
CORY BERNARDI:
Well the difficulty is that they said that for the last decade and they’ve continued to change their minds on things, as inconvenient truths come along. And business wants certainty. The greatest certainty we can give to business in this country for the people of Australia is, the Government to get the [indistinct] out of it. Every problem we’ve got with our energy system in Australia is driven by government. If Government hadn’t made the same choices, if they hadn’t pursued this green dream and blown up coal fired power stations and subsidised windmills and solar panels, we would have the cheapest and most reliable electricity anywhere in the country. And that was a great competitive advantage.
ALI CLARKE:
It’s 14 minutes to nine. That’s the voice of the leader of the Australian conservatives. Cory Bernardi. We also have Labor Senator for South Australia, Penny Wong and our Minister for Trade in Simon Birmingham on the line for this Super Wednesday. While we’ve got you Cory Bernardi, quite a few people want to have a chat to you. One of them is Richard from Port Elliot. Richard you’re in line with the Cory Bernardi, what did you want to ask?
CALLER – RICHARD:
Oh yes good morning. I’m a bit concerned that I’m getting phone texts from people that I’ve had absolutely no contact with via the phone and I’m just wondering where they’re getting my phone number because there is an increasing outreach via the phone by scammers. So, I just see it as just another scam.
ALI CLARKE:
Well Cory, you did send a text out. And a lot of people, Anne from North Adelaide wants to know, Sam, Robert, Diana, Port Adelaide wants to know how you got their number to send them a text over the weekend asking them to let you know what issues important to them in the election.
CORY BERNARDI:
As a Senator for South Australia, I use a lot of publicly available databases in information that we gather. And we’re trying to communicate with our constituents. It’s interesting that we got I think, over 20,000 responses over the weekend from people identifying issues and we’re in the process of responding to them now. It just seems to be most effective and efficient means of communicating with people and a lot of people seem to like it. If they don’t, they can just reply stop and they’ll never hear from me again.
ALI CLARKE:
What did they say to you? What is important to the 20,000 people who’ve replied to you?
CORY BERNARDI:
Their cost of living is really important. But then there are a whole range of diversified issues as well. People are having difficulties dealing with electricity companies, or with rent. They’ve got issues that are local neighborhood issues, or an [inaudible] and so forth. But we’re going through them and helping with in areas which we can, we’re referring other areas which is outside of the province of a Senator to others that can maybe assist.
DAVID BEVAN:
Penny Wong is the Australian Government obligated to bring the surviving Sharrouf children and grandchildren back to Australia?
PENNY WONG:
Look, I didn’t actually, well I think I was travelling so I didn’t actually see the ABC report on this, but I have read a [inaudible] amount about it and we have also sought and received some briefings from the Government. Look, I think as a general principle that children should not be punished for the wrongdoing of their parents. These are Australian citizens. And obviously you want to take advice about how you would deal with it. But we do have obligations to Australian citizens and children in these circumstances.
DAVID BEVAN:
So that’s a yes?
PENNY WONG:
Look, you have to, I think in government work through this properly with agencies, with intelligence agencies and how you would handle this. I think it’s wrong for these children to be turned into a political football. And I’m certainly not anxious, I’m anxious not for us not to do that. I think it’s a very tragic set of circumstances and obviously they’ve been put in a situation which has been horrific.
DAVID BEVAN:
Simon Birmingham.
SIMON BIRMINGHAM:
Depends a little by what you mean by obligated, David.
DAVID BEVAN:
Well that they are Australian citizens, aren’t they?
SIMON BIRMINGHAM:
Indeed. We are not obligated to bring them back to Australia in the sense that we will not be sending officials into harm’s way. Whether that’s diplomats, military or otherwise to extract them, in that sense. I mean it’s a grossly and an unbelievably irresponsible thing of course that occurred in terms of what their parents did in taking them into those circumstances.
DAVID BEVAN:
I’ll rephrase the question then Simon Birmingham. Should the Australian Government do everything within its power to get these children and grandchildren back to Australia?
SIMON BIRMINGHAM:
Indeed. We will provide all reasonable assistance. And of course, that is about ensuring that their welfare is considered, if they can get to safe locations where appropriate identification checks can take place. And then of course where they are Australians, their passage back to Australia ought to be provided for.
DAVID BEVAN:
Cory Bernardi.
CORY BERNARDI:
So, I wouldn’t be extending any Government resources in that direction. I think that [inaudible] at home. There are people in danger here and [inaudible] circumstances and I think the government should be focused on that. These people are in a camp in Syria they don’t have to be [inaudible] internal documents.
DAVID BEVAN:
So, you’d let you let those kids and the grandkids, who through no fault of their own have found themselves in this terrible situation. You’d just let them languish?
CORY BERNARDI:
David, there are many people who find themselves in terrible situations, including in many of the communities that I will be visiting over the next couple of weeks throughout South Australia. And too many people here want to let them languish in that situation and we need to do something about that immediately. [inaudible] a risk to ourselves or the children, I think that’s where our focus should be.
DAVID BEVAN:
Ok, at nine minutes to nine, final question to Simon Birmingham. Tony Abbott says he is prepared to become leader again of the Liberal Party, so long as the Liberal Party asked him and no one else was running. Are you likely to ever ask Tony Abbott to be leader of the Liberal Party?
SIMON BIRMINGHAM:
No, and for your listeners to have absolute certainty to reinforce this point, both major parties have changed their internal rules over recent years, so whoever is elected at this election. If it’s Scott Morrison he’ll be there for the next three years. If it’s Bill Shorten, people will get Bill Shorten for the next three years.
DAVID BEVAN:
Can you imagine under any circumstances, the future possibility, maybe if you were the last two people on the planet, would you vote for him as leader?
SIMON BIRMINGHAM:
Well then maybe I’d run for leader myself than David.
DAVID BEVAN:
If there was just the two of you, you would run for leader?
SIMON BIRMINGHAM:
I don’t know, but it’s a rather ridiculous hypothetical you’re putting there.
DAVID BEVAN:
I’m putting it to make the point that there is no way that Simon Birmingham ever wants Tony Abbott in that position again?
SIMON BIRMINGHAM:
Well I’m assuring your listeners that if we win this election, our Party rules are crystal clear now. Scott Morrison will be the Prime Minister for the entirety of the next Parliamentary term.
ALI CLARKE:
Well if you did run against him, Tony Abbott wouldn’t run because he said he’d only do it if nobody runs against him?
SIMON BIRMINGHAM:
I’d walk it in then.
ALI CLARKE:
Simon Birmingham, we’ll leave it there then.
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